Army Talk

Friday, March 31, 2006

“ROOTS” or REBELLION?

ROOTS is a Salvation Army event and community. As an event, ROOTS is currently held in the UK, Canada and US South. As a community, ROOTS exists online and through the huge network of people that have attended ROOTS, who are passionate about discipleship and mission in the 21st century.

The purpose of ROOTS is to call people to biblical Christianity, radical discipleship, contemporary communication of the gospel and a passion for the lost. These are at the ‘root’ of The Salvation Army as part of the Christian Church. (www.rootsonline.org)

At the Roots event the dress code is optional for everyone. One of the complaints that I’ve heard is “why are we promoting ‘ROOTS’ when they Army won’t let us do ‘ROOTS’ in our own Corps/Church?”
Another term that has come up in the past few years is “grassroots” ministry. The idea is that the people take ownership of their Corps/church and initiate new ministries that are lay driven. What if a Corps wanted to become a “Roots” Corps . . . and the Corps Council/leadership voted to make the dress code optional and adopt the Roots purpose statement? What if the Corps/leadership voted to make the dress code optional just like the ROOTS event?
Would that be an illustration of “grassroots” or would that be rebellion?

Would the officer/pastor be bound to the Army’s dress code or could he/she join the lay leaders in the “contemporary communication of the gospel” and support the “grassroots” initiative of the church?
Roots or Rebellion? Are our leaders sending mixed messages?

What do you think?

posted by Bret at 9:18 PM

31 Comments:

  • Let me preface my comments with this disclaimer: I hate when people use semmantics (sp?) to argue a minor point of a post without really discussing the context.

    With that said, I disagree with a premise you take for granted - that The Salvation Army is a church. I think the day we settled into thinking of ourselves as a denomination was the day we started nailing closed the coffin of our movement. And here is where Railton had it right, or so I believe:

    "We refuse to allow evangelists to stay very long in any one place, lest they or the people should sink into the relationship of pastor and flock, and look to their mutual enjoyment and advantage of others… We are a corps of volunteers for Christ, organised as perfectly as we have been able to accomplish, seeking no church status, avoiding as we would the plague every denominational rut, in order to reach more and more of those who lie outside every church boundary."

    SOme people can say that it was a normal translation for the Army to move from movement to Church. I say it is a sad thing to even consider. Why sit around and wrangle over the same young urban kids every other church is after. I say we need to go after the folks noone else wants and take our Army back into the field (the streets). Evidence you ask?

    Our new Salvos program has begun and we did our first prayer walk through our neighborhood. The result? Three little Af/American girls came to the corps - the first time black children have been in our corps building on a Sunday since I have been there. Why is this important? We live in a racially divided city and a white guy with some hispanic and white kids walking through a crime/drug infested neighborhood with the love of Jesus is something which may not have heppened ever in the history of other churches in our city.

    I say this in love - those who want to be a church? I wish you wouldn't. I choose to be an Army on the move, crashing down the wall that divides the fountain filled with Emanuel's blood and watching it flow into the streets where is is needed most.

    BTW Bret, your ideas on church being a waste have made me wonder, "Is congregational preaching a waste of time?" Plan to blog that one in the next few days.

    God bless - all my respect!

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 4:37 PM  

  • Hey Patrick,

    I agree with your statement regarding us being a “church” in the institutional sense. You can call us whatever you want. Our rules say, “We’re an institution.”

    As far as the Railton quote. . . I disagree. Moving our Officers every few years is one of the factors contributing to ineffectiveness. There are many studies that support that effective ministries have leadership tenures exceeding 11 years. The same studies show that ineffective ministries move their leaders every 3 or 4 years.

    I prefer the term “church” because it’s a term that people can generally identify with. However, if we’re not a church, why is Sunday School our priority program? Why do our DC’s bark about increasing Sunday school attendance? Why do we (our leaders-not me) care more about methods than mission? . . . Sounds like a church to me;)

    Blessings,

    Bret

    By Blogger Bret, at 5:04 PM  

  • I agree Bret. I never understood why Sunday School (although I see it's importance) attendance was the benchmark for "successful" corps. If we were about what we say we are about as an Army, then wouldn't community outreach and social ministry be the benchmarkers? Anyway, just thoughts. I guess it takes the "grassroots" church--or the ones tending the fields/harvest not standing for the status quo. Would this be rebellion? I don't know, but I do know that my husband and I do not allow man's praise or approval to be our motivation. If what we are doing is working, and we are seeing fruit...then we'll report what we must in number and let the Spirit "report" on the success of the rest.

    By Blogger Nicole_Marietta, at 8:12 PM  

  • First of al, let me answer your question from the post. I think it is our roots to do whatever needs to be done, within in Christian reason, to adapt culturally so that tha gospel may go forward, the Apostle Paul had it right.

    To the other point, though. Consider if the main focus of our "fellowship" was not so much attending meetings for home league and men's club but going out into the streets and meeting human needs.

    I am ready to ask people to stop praying for the homeless to be fed when God has given them provision to go out and feed them. How dare we pray for something to be done, when God has given us the mandate to feed, quench thirst, give clothing - meet needs. Our very mission statement says that we are to do so in Jesus Name. Our territorial mission statement says that we are to serve helpfully.

    In no place did Christ or the apostles set up club meds for Christians to go into their clics and forget the lost. Remember what Jesus said? John 17:15 (NIV) My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.

    "Church" is a waste of time because because church has ceased to be the world transforming entity. Its time to leave our bunkers and "storm the forts of darkness."

    And honestly, I agree on the whole numbers thing. My instructions from the founder are to go for souls, not pack the building. I know of one corps that bribed people into coming to the building with Christmas gift cards to walmart and thats being heralded as success. We've lost a third of our attendance to meetings because we are no longer giving the place away for free.

    My concern is that the people we do have are on the front lines. Thre are far to omany believers - especially salvationinsts that only serve in supportive roles. God forbid we should remain like this.

    I'll close with one last illustration (words many preachers use start the last half of their sermons). If there is one corps with 400 people attending who are praying for the poor and there is another with only ten who are in the streets ministering to the poor - which one do you think is in the will of God?

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10:10 PM  

  • First of al, let me answer your question from the post. I think it is our roots to do whatever needs to be done, within in Christian reason, to adapt culturally so that tha gospel may go forward, the Apostle Paul had it right.

    To the other point, though. Consider if the main focus of our "fellowship" was not so much attending meetings for home league and men's club but going out into the streets and meeting human needs.

    I am ready to ask people to stop praying for the homeless to be fed when God has given them provision to go out and feed them. How dare we pray for something to be done, when God has given us the mandate to feed, quench thirst, give clothing - meet needs. Our very mission statement says that we are to do so in Jesus Name. Our territorial mission statement says that we are to serve helpfully.

    In no place did Christ or the apostles set up club meds for Christians to go into their clics and forget the lost. Remember what Jesus said? John 17:15 (NIV) My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.

    "Church" is a waste of time because because church has ceased to be the world transforming entity. Its time to leave our bunkers and "storm the forts of darkness."

    And honestly, I agree on the whole numbers thing. My instructions from the founder are to go for souls, not pack the building. I know of one corps that bribed people into coming to the building with Christmas gift cards to walmart and thats being heralded as success. We've lost a third of our attendance to meetings because we are no longer giving the place away for free.

    My concern is that the people we do have are on the front lines. Thre are far to omany believers - especially salvationinsts that only serve in supportive roles. God forbid we should remain like this.

    I'll close with one last illustration (words many preachers use start the last half of their sermons). If there is one corps with 400 people attending who are praying for the poor and there is another with only ten who are in the streets ministering to the poor - which one do you think is in the will of God?

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10:12 PM  

  • sorry - anon is me

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10:13 PM  

  • Nicole & Patrick,

    Do you think our leaders are sending mixed messages on the "grassroots" thing?

    Blessings,

    By Blogger Bret, at 11:49 PM  

  • I think they are forcing people to ask questions and start making decisions about the Army form the pew adn not the pulpit.

    Who are we going to be? What are we to be known for and what shall be our lasting accomplishments?

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 11:52 PM  

  • Patrick,

    Good question.

    What are they now?

    By Blogger Bret, at 12:10 AM  

  • Depends on where you live. We walked about a block with our teens (Salvos), as I mentioned earlier, in our neighborhood on Sunday morning adn the first person we met was Ms. Bell. She couldn't believe we were out talking to people and I had to apologize that we had not been better neighbors.

    In Greenwood, people talk about how great the Army was in the old days. I believe that with God's purpose, provision, purity, and protection, the best days are on the way and God ir ready to do a new thing.

    But we each have to decide what we will do "in the communities where we live."

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 8:05 AM  

  • As mentioned from Greenwood,the talk of how great the army was in the old days brings to question,what were they doing in the"old days" to make it great?What happened? We have got to teach and preach with fire and PASSION,we have to live our lives the same,It will be "contagious" to all of those around us. We will through God's presence in us bring others into the body of christ.We have got to be willing to let God use us however needed. Maybe we need to reflect on how we felt when we were saved,the love the joy the passion we had for jesus! Do we still have that joy?Do we still live with that passion? Does all we do reflect our Lord? We should all be saying "Lord send me"
    Lord guide us and direct us! Just a soldiers point of view.
    Hoyle

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 11:48 AM  

  • We have been very intentional about bridging our corps "programs" and the social ministry...we are preaching worship as service. We can be "good" at playing church, and terrible at service.
    I am constantly feeling the push from leadership to build "numbers". When I look at the sheets they evaluate the main categories are: membership, women's and men's ministries, sunday school, sunday meetings (AM and PM), and children's worship. The End. There is no where to put in the "corps" stats to reflect our children serving dinner to the homeless, the time we've spent eating with these individuals, the one on one time spent on the street as we walk to the post office, bread distribution and times spent talking with those who come in for this. Important...yes, recorded...not always a spot for it. When and how do we move as an organization from quantity to quality (because if we have quality, the quantity will follow...sometimes slowly)?

    By Blogger Nicole_Marietta, at 2:25 PM  

  • i blogged the preaching thing. check it out and tell me what you think

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10:31 PM  

  • Hey Bret,
    It appears that you are doing a great job of stirring up interest.

    As far as I am concerned, there does seem to be mixed signals about the willingness of leadership to allow God to move in a new and fresh way.

    I spoke to an officer just yesterday concerning the fact that the speeches at many of our get-togethers, with the message of change, has become the equivalent of a man who goes to his bedroom to find his wife dressed very provocatively only to be handed a bowl of popcorn and asked to start the Disney movie. After a couple of times, the husband will stop getting excited when he sees his wife in Victoria Secret's latest atire.

    I have grown numb to the "change talk". it appears that we'll just have to wait for a few more retirements before God can have His Army back.

    Keep this in mind every time someone complains about how young and/or new officers are doing things:
    "The good old days made great contributions to the bad new days." --Dr. Rod Cooper

    By Blogger Johnny, at 11:56 PM  

  • Johnny,

    Thanks for your comments. . . why wait for leaders to retire? Why not approach the leaders and help them see. . . why not do what they say. . . Grassroots baby!

    What do you think?

    By Blogger Bret, at 2:22 PM  

  • I truly believe that if we keep saying, "Wait." that the impatience of holy discontent will show its beautiful head, if only from sheer spite.

    I'm with you brother.

    Johnny

    By Blogger Johnny, at 2:26 PM  

  • Hoyle,

    those are good questions.

    By Blogger Bret, at 8:40 PM  

  • Capt,
    I have got the Velvet Elvis book. It's pretty good. The first thing I noticed and really turned me on to the book is what Rob Bell says on the back, "We have to test everything..... Test it. Probe it. Do that to this book. Don't swallow it uncritically. Think about it. Wrestle with it. Just because I'm a Christian and I'm trying to articulate a Christian world view doesn't mean I've got it nailed. I'm contributing to the discussion."

    There is some verying interesting points brought up. So here is my contribution to the discussion of stuff overall.

    On page 163 Bell asserts that the Christian church was a countercultural society. On this very basis alone this question arises. Why should we as a Christian church try to fit into a worldly mold? Why should we as a counterculture fit into any other culture? Are we not, as Christians, to stand apart from the world. We are to be in the world and not of it. I agree with that the Christian church is a counter culture society because we are apart from the world. John 15:19 (NIV) "If you belonged in the world, it would love you as its own. As it is you don't belong to the world, but I have chosen you OUT of the world. That is why the world hates you." You see we will never please the world. That's ok, we are not suppose to. Nor should we ever apologize for being a Christian.

    Also, I am seeing more and more comments about preaching, and how preaching is irrelevant. Woe. As disciples of our Risen Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ this is our mandate. Mark 16:15 (NIV) "He (Jesus) said to them, Go into all the world and PREACH the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

    Any way this is my thought on the discussions as a whole. This is God has laid on my heart.

    PS It has some cool stuff about discipleship. Might be something cool to add to the class.

    Grace and Peace,
    Loren

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 12:22 AM  

  • AMEN LOREN - Fire a volley (or two)

    Just one thing - it says go into the world. Not hang out in the bunkers. I don't contend that preaching is worthless, but I do believe that preaching your best sermon every week to people who will not live it when they walk out the door has some serious issues.

    God bless and keep reading.

    Patrick

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 2:31 AM  

  • Patrick,
    I agree. We can not just stay in the bunker. Think about this: If you, God's messenger not just to those unsaved but to the saved as well, are preaching your best sermon and people are still not living it when they walk out the door; then do you think that they are going to see their ways on their own? See if you are not telling them God's message, how will they know. We can't convict. Thats the work of the spirit. So keep telling the church God's message, and His Spirit will do the rest.
    Galatians 6:9 (NIV)"Let us not become weary in doing good, for a proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up."

    You might not see the fruits of your labor now, but at a proper time you will see the harvest.


    I pray knowingly that God will bless you and your ministry.

    Blessings
    Loren

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10:53 AM  

  • Loren,

    Good points. . .

    Your comment on “counterculture”. . . It’s true that we are not “of the world” and that we are “aliens” . . . but when Jesus came to earth he came and fit into and identified with the world in which he lived. He participated in the cultural customs of the day and lived like any other normal human being in that day and age. . . the difference was his sinless and missional life. Ours should be the same.

    I prefer to see us “engage” the culture rather than “counter” the culture. The Amish “counter” the culture. . . are they winning the world for Jesus?

    By Blogger Bret, at 9:55 PM  

  • To the Jews, I'm a Jew. To the gentiles, I'm a gentile. To everyone else, I'm an idiot.

    Have a great day

    patrick

    ps. satan sucks. THATS GOING ON MY NEW (to me) MOTORCYCLE.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 3:00 PM  

  • Hey Patrick,

    Is that a Divine revelation?:)

    By Blogger Bret, at 8:48 PM  

  • know - its an obvious revelation to all who know me - also, i like your illustration on the Amish - gonna steal it today.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 9:41 AM  

  • My thoughts on all this are simple in idea, but confusing in explanation. My idea on ROOTS was that it was supposed to be a "grassroots" movement to energize the Army to movement. Nice idea, in theory. What it has been turned into has been our own "counter-culture" in the Army. I may be wrong on this, but it seems that this ROOTS movement has at its core; to change the Army from being what we started out as, as ARMY! We see one action and like it,so we move to that action. We see another, and that looks good too so we adopt it as well. We even hear terms used like "primitive salvationists" and adopt it because it looks good on a business card, but what does all that prove? Are we an army, a church, primitive salvationists, ROOTS, or a congregation without a true identity?

    Don't get me wrong. I love the Army. I love being an officer in a community that desperately needs Jesus and being there, whether on the street on in my pulpit on Sunday, to give them the greatest thing since God invented remote controls for husbands. It gets frustrating for me to see all our ranking officers to push the next big idea and do nothing but wait for stats to show its effectiveness. There are few that get out and do something about it.

    God is God and His Word is getting out there; whether I or my bosses do it. That's the cool thing about God. He gets it done with us or without us.

    Before I get deported from my home, I close. And don't slam the Amish. They engage the culture with fine furniture and whatnots for your home. Their delivery is very slow though. Moving trucks do need to stop and graze for a while.

    Have a good one. PPP rule!

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 3:51 PM  

  • Dude! LOL on the Amish comment. . . that's pretty good. . .

    One question concerning my post: Would it be "Roots" or rebellion? Are our leaders sending mixed messages?

    By Blogger Bret, at 10:40 AM  

  • Ok, I'll bite. Yes, I think we are getting mixed signals...is it intentional? I think not. I do think our leadership has the mission in their hearts, but is finding it difficult to break from the status quo of the Army. What does this mean? I don't think (at least my experience and discussions) that leadership wants to stiffle anyone's heart for service or creativity. But, because they are human, personal bias can play in decisions about such "unconvential" approaches. So, yes...I think that when leadership says "Mission Matters Most" or any other catchy "slogan", they really do mean it...it's the practical and administrative issues that get in the way. Do we uproot the "system" to really do what is at the heart of our mission? Is this necessary? If so, why? If not, how do we embrace creative approaches to ministry in this system?
    Tough questions, I think that's why we get stuck in the comfortable!

    By Blogger Nicole_Marietta, at 4:25 PM  

  • Nicole,

    Good comment. . .creative approaches can can be embraced in this system. . . but it's really hard. . . although, I think it's hard in just about any denomination or church.

    By Blogger Bret, at 10:22 PM  

  • Bret:

    While I agree that this looks like mixed messages coming from leaders, I do not believe the attention should be focused on "grassroots" methodology: uniforms, open airs.

    I am concerned with a return to the minsitry the Army was called to. Now you did the open air thing at Lawrenceville (sp?). But when you folks went out with the band and the clowns, was there anybody on teh lookout for obvious need. If you saw a lady in a broken wheelchair - was there a move to raise funds to buy a new one or repair a leaky roof or fix the tire on a bike or some attempt to meet human needs associated with the Gospel?

    Here is where a roots movement is necessary - it is time for the church to retake our social ministry and reattach the gospel to it. Separating the social ministry from the spiritual ministry was like taking the gun out of the soldiers hands, or worse yet - putting it in the hands of another who refuses to use "the weapons of our warfare."

    What made the Army great was that we met human needs and shared the love of Jesus with the same hands. If there is one soldier who thinks they are too good for social service to their fellow man - then the problem is not one of methodology or cultural relevence - it is a problem of heart.

    It lies in the mantra of the new Salvation Army: "While women weep, we pray. While men go to prison, we sing. While men go to prison, we go home because church is over and we are more than happy to refer everyone to our social services office, because, really, they are the ones properly equipped to handle the problem."

    I can testify not to what I believe, but what I have experienced - When you take that plate of food or help mow the yard of the poor and elderly in your community and then say, "Would you mind if I sit down with you and talk about Jesus?" - then at that moment, the fact that you are cuturally irelevant by wearing a uniform will not matter. The fact that you are spiritually relevant.

    As for me and my house - we will wear S's. On our pajamas.

    I'm in a war and my uniform - AND MY ACTIONS - must be the the testament. Now what about all the other "soldiers"? My uniform gets me on the front porch - the gospel gets them to Jesus.

    love ya bro

    patrick

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 12:06 PM  

  • Patrick,

    I'm used to calling you something else. I guess we all eventually grow and change. Anyway, I totally understand where you are coming from. But it does bring up a question for me. If being a spiritual and social service army is what we are supposed to be doing, and trust me that's what I do and signed up for, why did it change? I have many theories, but the big one I have is money. We want to help so many and we will take any money we can, but we get caught up with funds that restrict us and we get used to it so we dumb down our approach till it's not an approach to bringing Christ to them at all. There are other avenues, and we do use them, to spread the gospel and bring people to Christ. I do think that money has influenced the "how" in our social/spiritual action.

    Take care. You gotta love that drive to camp. I know on my end I do. Our best to you and your family, new addition and all.

    Chris Thornhill
    Soon to be deportee for thiunking all this stuff

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 8:15 AM  

  • Chris - I think money played a roll. her are some others that I consider as contributing:

    1. Soldiers are no longer the driving implementers of service in the corps - a social service employee is. So soldiers are no longer actively envolved in the meeting of needs (as an Army in the West, there are exceptions to this).

    2. We have taken on a church mentality, focusing too great a percentage of our preparation and activation of ministry in our four walls as a world spiritually dies around us. (again, there are exceptions). (A pox on the day the commissioner's conference got together and said we are a church. - there is one church and as our mission states, we are an evangelical part of it.)

    3. Soldiers are not expected to be mission and evangelically oriented as we once were. Perhaps open airs - don't work - but they have not been relplaced with anything - we simply quit having a public "Gospel" presence, hence noone ses us as a spiritual movement, concerned about the souls of men. So we are the bellringers and disaster people who need to put out a brand so people will have an idea of what we are about.

    [insert diatribe: Don't blame a brand for taking our spiritual side out of the public face of the army. We need to blame it on ourselves because we have are the ones who have forsaken evangelical outreach and public ministry. We are the ones so focused on our comfortable congregations as the poor go without soup, soap, and salvation from our hands. Society forgot years ago that there was a spiritual side to the army. Our public perception problems are due intirley to the fact that we have forgotten our First Love and His commandment to make disciples in our communities. We build it and hope they will come when we follow a savior who never owned a bed in His ministry. /:end diatribe.)

    There are others, but I guess this is Bret's page, afterall.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 12:00 PM  

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