Is "church" a waste of time?
Most of the churches that are growing these days are growing primarily from transfer and biological growth (there are, of course, exceptions). So basically, if you’re running a church with all the “traditional” elements, then you’ve got to do “church” really well to attract people. The result is, you spend a LOT of time, energy and resources making church “good” so that you can attract either church people or church people who really need to get back into church. All the while people, who really need us to reach out to them on their level, are going to hell in a hand basket.
What about making church a little more productive? What I mean is, maybe we shouldn't center on “worship” in the "traditional" Sunday morning sense. Instead, we could make Sunday morning worship time more like an ongoing “training camp.” The purpose of getting together would be to train and prepare for ministry.
The attitude could be like this: “If all you want is a church to serve YOU, then go somewhere else. This isn’t the place for you. We are an army - a mission. We expect everyone here to enroll in a discipleship training course and be serving others OUTSIDE THE CHURCH in some way. We have service opportunities and expect everyone to engage in ministry.”
Anyone who could not find a ministry could join others in a “think/prayer tank” (that meets weekly) where they would seek God and discuss ideas for reaching others with the gospel. Those who have an idea are free to find volunteers, organize others, and engage in ministry.
The purpose of a ministry such as this would not be to get people to attend Sunday school or the Sunday morning meeting. Each ministry would uniquely connect and engage a sub-culture of the community. Each ministry would have a discipleship component that helps new believers grow personally and spiritually and empowers them to serve others.
What do you think? I’ll post part II in few days. In that post I’ll give some ideas that we’re working on and I'll clarify some of my comments a little further.
Tell me what you think. Is “church” a waste of time?
(PS If I respond to your comment I will respond on this post.)
What about making church a little more productive? What I mean is, maybe we shouldn't center on “worship” in the "traditional" Sunday morning sense. Instead, we could make Sunday morning worship time more like an ongoing “training camp.” The purpose of getting together would be to train and prepare for ministry.
The attitude could be like this: “If all you want is a church to serve YOU, then go somewhere else. This isn’t the place for you. We are an army - a mission. We expect everyone here to enroll in a discipleship training course and be serving others OUTSIDE THE CHURCH in some way. We have service opportunities and expect everyone to engage in ministry.”
Anyone who could not find a ministry could join others in a “think/prayer tank” (that meets weekly) where they would seek God and discuss ideas for reaching others with the gospel. Those who have an idea are free to find volunteers, organize others, and engage in ministry.
The purpose of a ministry such as this would not be to get people to attend Sunday school or the Sunday morning meeting. Each ministry would uniquely connect and engage a sub-culture of the community. Each ministry would have a discipleship component that helps new believers grow personally and spiritually and empowers them to serve others.
What do you think? I’ll post part II in few days. In that post I’ll give some ideas that we’re working on and I'll clarify some of my comments a little further.
Tell me what you think. Is “church” a waste of time?
(PS If I respond to your comment I will respond on this post.)
posted by Bret at
8:44 PM
8 Comments:
Love.
Relationships.
Encouragement.
Support.
To me, that's church. I think a 'training camp' approach could work very well - with those things as integral to the mix.
Hmmm... I think Fridayitis has hit my coherency unit. Hope that makes sense :-)
By
Naomi, at 2:07 AM
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
By
Bret, at 8:49 AM
Thanks for the reminder. Ministry of any kind or methodology, without love, is just a bunch of noise.
By
Bret, at 8:51 AM
"Therefore, a Sabbath rest still remains for the people of God." - Heb 4:9
"Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another--and all the more as you see the Day approaching." Heb 10:25
Worship should be about Jesus Christ period. Worship shouldn’t be about us, it should not be about others, but it should be about Jesus Christ.
Church is defined as “called out ones” the body of believers gathered to worship Jesus, according to Zondervan’s NIV Concordance
The Bible calls us to be in fellowship and worship with other believers, and one of the commandments is to remember the Sabbath and keep it Holy.
I believe that Sunday morning worship is essential to a Christian believer. Sunday morning worship is where believers come together to fellowship with each other and worship Christ on a day that we recognize as the Sabbath.
I got to be 100 percent honest. I don’t believe that changing our Sunday morning programs will do much to get people in. Whether contemporary or traditional. Sunday morning is more for believers than nonbelievers. In reality the unsaved cares nothing about the church.
A lot of people are looking for church to fit them. They want to like the music, and they want to be comfortable. Is this wrong? Not necessarily, but here is the problem, when we try to accommodate people we are missing what Sunday morning worship is about. It is not about us. I am a young adult. When I hear other young adults and others say man that old hymn is so lame, and we need more contemporary songs, (or vice versa) I think that they are missing the point of that hymn or song. You know Sunday morning worship modern or traditional shouldn’t be about appealing to our emotions, comfort etc., it really shouldn’t be a platform (because it is not a good platform) for mission work. Does this mean that our Sunday morning worship is closed to all others, no it doesn’t. But don’t come in and complain and say this didn’t appeal to me, well it is not suppose to. Sunday morning worship is about worshiping and pleasing God, not us. “If all you want is a church to serve YOU, then go somewhere else. This isn’t the place for you. We are an army - a mission. We expect everyone here to enroll in a discipleship training course and be serving others OUTSIDE THE CHURCH in some way. We have service opportunities and expect everyone to engage in ministry.”
I would like to add this those on who are sitting on each side of the fence (traditional church-contemporary church). The defining difference is the adjective traditional/contemporary. As long as your church is Christ centered, and Bible based it will not matter what songs you sing and what dance you do. And when one comes to know Christ they will understand that. They will understand that it’s not that you like the music you hear and are singing; it is that the words that embody that music are heart felt and pleasing to God.
Basically what I am saying is there is a difference in Sunday morning worship, and our outreach ministry. Our Sunday morning worship services, and all church functions (where we meet for fellowship, discipleship, worship) for that matter are primarly there for believers, unbelievers don’t go to church. With this said I believe that there is a difference in church (where we meet for fellowship, discipleship, worship) and relevant outreach ministries. I believe that these two should complement each other and not degrade. The outreach mission should be where ‘special forces’ and go in and find those who are don’t know Christ, and we build relationships with them, plant the seed. And when they accept Christ we invite them to church (where we meet for fellowship, discipleship, worship) and let our ‘conventional’ forces disciple and teach and train them on Christian living.
We should not have to “do” church to attract others. The message is the same and unchanging. I also firmly believe that Sunday morning worship is essential, I believe that the line is being blurred between outreach and worship.
"As they were leaving, they invited them to speak on these subjects the following Sabbath. On the following Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord." - Acts 13:42, 44
"If you hold back your foot on the Sabbath from following your own pursuits on my holy day; If you call the Sabbath a delight, and the LORD'S holy day honorable; If you honor it by not following your ways, seeking your own interests, or speaking with malice--Then you shall delight in the LORD, and I will make you ride on the heights of the earth; I will nourish you with the heritage of Jacob, your father, for the mouth of the LORD has spoken." - Isaiah 58:13-14
"Remember to keep holy the Sabbath day…the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD, your God. No work may be done …the LORD has blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy." - Ex 20:8, 10-11
"As they were leaving, they invited them to speak on these subjects the following Sabbath. On the following Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord." - Acts 13:42, 44
"For Moses, for generations now, has had those who proclaim him in every town, as he has been read in the synagogues every Sabbath." - Acts 15:21
"Every Sabbath, he entered into discussions in the synagogue, attempting to convince both Jews and Greeks." - Acts 18:4
Blessings
Loren
By
Anonymous, at 6:37 PM
Lauren,
Thanks for the comments. You’ve made some good points. However, let me attempt to clarify what I think I’m trying to say (part of this dialog is to help me clarify and communicate my thoughts):
On your comment: “And when they accept Christ we invite them to church (where we meet for fellowship, discipleship, worship).” Are you suggesting that in order to be a part of our church or be a “member” (I’m beginning to really hate that word) that they would need to attend Sunday morning meetings?
Why do those who we reach through “relevant outreach ministries” need to come to Sunday morning meetings? Why not create subgroups of the ministry that reached them?
Our Sunday morning services are a culture of their own. They simply do not connect with the other cultures that exist within our community. It’s not about being contemporary or traditional it’s about being culturally relevant.
Who says church has to be three songs, an offering, a prayer or two, and a sermon? Why Sunday morning? What’s the point? The “point” is to make disciples.
What I’m suggesting in my blog is that we focus on that point; that we not structure our Sunday morning services to attract people and increase attendance. Instead, our Sunday morning time together be a time of preparation—preparing to engage our culture in ways that glorify God and bring radical transformation to our community.
Sunday morning might end up being multiple “preparation” groups (if they meet on Sunday Morning) meeting in different places inside or outside the building. Each “preparation” group would represent a different sub-culture. The paths of these groups may or may not cross.
Thanks or listening as I sort out my thoughts.
Feel free to keep challenging them.
Blessings,
Bret
By
Bret, at 9:21 PM
“To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law. . . so as to win those under the law. . . To the weak I became weak, to win the weak (1 Cor 9:20-23).”
When the ones of the law were one over, did they stay under the law. When the Jews were won over, did they stay continue with their Jewish faith. If so, what is the purpose of winning them over. It is good to become like your target audience, but once you win the over can they remain the same?
Grace and Peace
Loren
By
Anonymous, at 12:55 AM
Capt.,
“What I’m suggesting in my blog is that we focus on that point; that we not structure our Sunday morning services to attract people and increase attendance. Instead, our Sunday morning time together is a time of preparation—preparing to engage our culture in ways that glorify God and bring radical transformation to our community.”
I agree with this statement 100%. I think the problem that we have come across in trying to reach people is that we have measured our success by our Sunday morning attendance. I believe in kingdom growth not Sunday morning growth. We have tried to change programs that don’t apply to the unsaved.
With that said, let me clarify of what I think about church. To me what our corps is:
§ It is a place where we gather together as a group of believers to worship God, in orderly worship.
§ It is where we fellowship with believers, encourage each other, to support each other
§ It is where we are trained in ways of Christian living and Christian doctrines
§ It is a lighthouse to those in need.
‘(It is also a place that we have set aside and consecrated to the Lord as Holy)’
Basically I believe that the church should encompass worship services, discipleship training, and fellowship groups. Look at Acts 2:42-47. This passage encompasses these three principles. When we as members of the church family reach others, through whatever means, I believe that they will see what the church is for and will want to be a part of it.
”Our Sunday morning services are a culture of their own. They simply do not connect with the other cultures that exist within our community. It’s not about being contemporary or traditional it’s about being culturally relevant.” This is true (Sunday morning services are a culture of their own). However should our worship services be culturally relevant? Should we let society dictate how we worship or should we let society dictate how we reach them?
“Who says church has to be three songs, an offering, a prayer or two, and a sermon?” It doesn’t but a worship service should be orderly. Why Sunday morning? Sunday is the day that we recognize as the Sabbath.
What’s the point? The “point” is to make disciples. That is true. To be a disciple you become a committed follower Jesus. An orderly worship service with a group of believers is a biblical practice. I am a disciple of Christ, and I see importance in corporate worship.
“Are you suggesting that in order to be a part of our church or be a “member” (I’m beginning to really hate that word) that they would need to attend Sunday morning meetings?” To be apart of our church, the body of Christ, they only need to accept Christ as their Lord and Saviour.
Question, if we were target a part of our community that’s culture idolizes and reveres drugs and alcohol, we would meet them in the bar; but would we stay in the bar? Once we build a relationship with them, introduce Christ, would we want them to stay in a negative environment. No. We would invite them into a safe environment, like church. Does that mean we need to add a keg to our coffee shop on Sunday morning? Church should be a safe place from the outside world, where they can worship God, and be in fellowship with other believers. Church will be different from the environment that they came from. Now, once they have become strong in faith, a good MINISTRY opportunity would be for them to go and reach those like themselves show them that life can be different.
Grace and Peace
Loren
By
Anonymous, at 12:57 AM
In response to “When the one’s under the law were won over, did they stay under the law? . . . Did they continue in their Jewish faith? . . . Once you win them over can they remain the same?
There’s a difference between personal transformation (the result of Christ’s work) and religious practice. In Acts 15 the Apostles and Elders met and discussed this difference.
As far as the bar. . .stay in the bar and let Christ transform the bar . . . thus, community transformation.
Blessings,
Bret
By
Bret, at 9:34 AM
Post a Comment
<< Home